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Messaggio inserito da tartamau
Uruloki, dice il giusto, infatti le carbonarie che il sig. Marco chiama albine e di cui invia solo foto alla nascita (Chissà perchè poi!?) mantengono il colore rosso e tracce di pigmentazione, fatto questo che con la sua arbitraria definizione di albinismo, del tutto privata ed infondata scientificamente, non lo sarebbero (ma di fatto lo sono)!!!!
Fatto questo esercizio di dialettica spicciola, il sig. Marco penso abbia visto solo le foto del piccolo postato ieri che chiunque può osservare privo di alcuna colorazione.
Come ho già detto l'albinismo è un fenomeno complesso (lo sapevate che in mammiferi artici il freddo inibisce la produzione di melanina? E' una delle forme di albinismo. Esso può essere pure parziale): il fatto che le piccole marginate nascano completamente bianche e con gli occhi rossi ci dice che esse non sono in grado di sintetizzare melanina. Se lo erano sarebbero nate colorate! E' pur vero che il blocco metabolico che in ultima analisi porta alla produzione di melanina può essere in un punto del percorso che può essere baipassato con alcuni metaboliti normalmente presenti nell'alimentazione. Questo spiegherebbe anche il caso dell'assenza completa di melanina: infatti la mutazione in questo caso non sarebbe a monte del processo ma a valle, alla fine. Nessun metabolita potrebbe arrivare a compimento del processo infatti. Nel caso delle Marginate, e lo posso dire per decennale esperienza, un'alimentazione più o meno proteica influenza in modo evidente l'avvento di pigmento. Vorrei ricordare che le tartarughe non perdono la pelle, tutto quello che si forma va ad accumularsi sommandosi sempre di più con gli anni.
Questa è la loro fortuna ed il motivo per il quale si ritrovano con una frequenza straordinariamente alta anche in natura.
Personalmente cerco di far scurire le mie albine quanto prima, infatti assumono una colorazione caramello, fatto questo che le mette fuori pericolo e in pari condizioni di una tartaruga di regolare colorazione. Resta comunque inteso che la differenza appare evidente anche in età adulta.
Ve lo posso assicurare: la bellezza di un albino è la sorpresa di vederlo sbucare candido e con l'occhio infuocato dal suo uovo.
Quello che tuttavia non mi spiego è perchè, nonostante la possibilità di farlo, chi urla certe affermazioni non si pone neanche il problema di verificare se esse siano vere o meno. E intendo non in un vocabolario di lingua.
Finisco dicendo che le marginate luteole, sono state così definite in quanto gialle (termine di derivazione latina).
Maurizio
Dear Sg. Maurizio,
I had not and I am having not any intention against you surely. As I can see, you are one of the best Tortoises breeder in Italy, and I am very happy about your work and results. I never seen your animals, and I cannot speak about these animals. I tried to speak about albinismus, as appearance of melanine deficience inside of any organism. And, of course, due I am not genetic’s specialist, I COULD BE WRONG.
Now, I would like to give some additional explanations to you, as follows:
1. I do not call (and show on the pictures) as albino Tortoises the baby Tortoises only, i.e. young Tortoises immediately after their hatch. No, I am observing them in all ages, if they are right albinotic animals. Yes, of course, I added some photos of just hatched and very young age albino Red-footed Tortoise, as well few photos of very young age of albino Hermann’s Tortoise too, to show animals in the same color (full absence of melanine) as well as of Mrs. Jitka specimen.
Now, I am attaching again some photos of adult age albino Red-footed Tortoises (independing I sent it on the Forum earlier!), to see very easy – there is practically no difference between hatchling, young ones and fully adult animal in this color. They are having the color difference depend on their age, as well as all other Tortoises (some small changes in the whole body colors only!).
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Also, I am attaching again one photo of albino Hermann’s Tortoise (T. h. hermanni) in adult age, to compare this photo with 3 photos of young age T. h. hermanni which I sent earlier, to see the same situation. No big difference in color of young and adult ones! Anyway, I COULD BE WRONG MAYBE!
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2. The tortoises with very light body color were called by USA breeders as “albino” animals in past very easy, independing on black eyes in them. So, we could seen pictures of beautifull “albinotic” specimens in USA, independing on their right genetic position. Recently, the same breeders changed name of their animals in hypomelanistic, being seen the difference between them and right albino ones.
I am attaching again photos of Red-footed Tortoises called “albino” in past, and hypomelanistic right now!
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2. Of course, my definition of albinismus is my own view, and could not be 100% accurate. Also, my definition is not deep scientifically based, no doubt in it. It is based on personal experience of mine for many years, and due of my interest to know something about genetic in live animals. So, I am still thinking, albinismum is asking for total absence of melanine pigment both in body and eyes. But, as I already wrote, I COULD BE WRONG MAYBE!
Regarding North Pole (Arctic’s) mammals, and not mammals species only (than many interesting birds species, too, as Snow Owl, Gir Falcon, Snow Goose, etc…), these animals are not albinotic animals, than white colored (always or temporary) animals only. There is enough big difference in them and pure albinotic animals. Albinotic animals could not survive on Arctic surely, because they will become blind from their birth practically. Arctic sun is having the same action on live entity eyes like sun on any other place, and it will destroy non-pigmented eyes very quickly.
Arctic birds and mammals are having white color on body only, but not in the eyes. And, usually, they are changing their body color depend on season. On cold season (half of autumn, the whole winter and half of spring) they are white colored animals, but on “warm season” they become more colored, and they are getting some grey, greybrown, silvergrey, brown, and black colored features (easy visible in Polar Foxes, Snow Owls, Gir Falcons, Snow Geese, and many others). Of course, some of them wear white clot for the whole year (Polar Bears as example, independing there are cases in grey and light brown colored Polar Bears during summer season, too), but is it not right albinismus. Animals like this are having some system of malanine reductions (of blocking) in their body color during cold season, and its normal appearance during other period of year.
It is my personal point of view, dear Sir, and I COULD BE WRONG, of course!
3. In albinotic animals, their eyes should not be light red/pink colored in the whole life, i.e. in all ages. They could become much darker, appearing as red wine colored, or very deep red. No problem in it at all, it of course depend on melanine livel in wild colored animals of the same species. So, we should expect different body color in albinotic Marginated Tortoises comparing them with albinotic Hermann’s Tortoises, or albinotic African Spur-thighed Totoises (G. sulcata), albinotic Red-footed Totoises, etc…. Marginated Tortoises are having much more melanine inside of their body color in wild animals, and we could expect darker body and eye colors in albino Marginated Tortoises, than, as example in albinotic Hermann’s Tortoises. It is my point of view, but I am not so far TO BE WRONG maybe!
4. There are some hypomelanistic Marginated Tortoises available by EU breeders, and I am attaching one photo placed on Internet by side of French’s Company celled “La Ferme Tropicale”, to see animal like this, too! Due, you are having very big experience and knowledge in this species, you will be able to give your comment regarding this animals easy. Of course, French’s Company is asking very big amount of money for this animal, what is not of importance for this Forum!
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5. You are right, Sir, the different diet are giving different proteins livel, as well as different presence of pigments inside. No doubt in it, pigments inside diets could change body colors, too (as example, it is necessary to give red pigments to some birds keeping their body color red, as in Canaries, wild Finches, etc.., etc…).
Finaly, I am treating Turtle Forum as place where we are able to have fruitfull discussion in many different aspects, helping each other and increasing our current knowledge very much. So, nobody is claim to be top specialist in everything, and nobody knows everything. We should learn each other, and it is top value of Forums like this.
I am having my own point of view for many different things. But, I know very well, some of my viewpoints are wrong, and I am ready to change it. So, I do not afraid and do not shy to ask for explanations, for help, for other point of views. And also, I do not shy to admit my errors. I made it in this Forum few times, but after that, I admitted truth immediately, and I gave my excuse to people being right in the beginning. Finaly, I am very grateful to many people in this Forum gave new usable informations to me, raized drapes in many doubts of mine, and opened my eyes much more.
All of us are looking for the answers, and he can help each other many times!
So, thanks for your explanations, dear Sir!. You are right much more than me maybe, and I am giving my apologize to you in advance. I am wishing all the best in your bred of Tortoises, your knowledge is very high, and I am ready to learn from you with no doubt.
At the end, I am attaching few photos of some other albinotic Tortoises, too, too see the same principle in appearance of this color!
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The first two are G. sulcata, the second two are T. kleinmanni, and the last one is K. homeana!
Yours faithfully, Marco
Note: “albino” Kinixys homeana is slightly strange to me, because independing of red-eyes in this animal, we can see some presence on dark color on its body!
I AM PROMISSING, I WILL WRITE SO BIG MESSAGES LIKE THIS NEVER MORE!!!
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