Citazione:
Messaggio inserito da platysternon
son tutte e due boettgeri http://www.schildkroeten-farm.de/unterscheidung.php
qui fan vedere la differenza
Dear Sir,
I am having important remarks on above mentioned!
But, first, I am asking some friends in Italy, to help me and make translation of my text in Italian.
So, I claim, both animals cannot be T.H.B., I am sure in it, due I am working with T.H.B. for the whole life of mine practicaly, and I have seen by my eyes thousand and thousand heads of this species.
Unfortunately, I am working in T.H. hercegovinensis for past 5 years, too, but after have seen photos of Sg. "Vinci", i though about T.H. hermanni, instead about T.H. hercegovinensis from two reasons only:
- I could not imagine how one T.H. hercegovinensis become available by one Italian breeder, independing it could be possible, of course; and, as second
- all T.H. hercegovinensis of mine are of significatory darker color than male on attached photos.
I did not think about it, the color on photos should not be right color obligatory. Also, all T.H. hercegovinensis of mine are originate from Monte Negro and Herzegovina. I had not specimens of T.H. hercegovinensis originate from Croatian coast and Islands, and I cannot be sure in their carapace color available.
Now, I checked all photo documentation of mine, and found T.H. hercegovinensis could have carapace color exactly same as carapace color of male by Sg. "Vinci".
So, I was in doubt previously, having imagine it could be old male of T.H. hermanni, or maybe hybridized male. It is appearing now, this male is of subspecies T.H. hercegovinensis, and I will proof it with many different photos of this species right now. Anyway, as I wrote in my entry to this discussion, this male is surely not one T.H. boetgeri.
I know about Web page
www.schildkroeten-farm.de/ very well, but this page is not enough clear and informations are insufficient (not detailed description of T.H. boetgeri inside). There are few other much better Web pages on Internet, with detailed description on all 3 subspecies of Hermann's Tortoise.
Now, I would like to show right pictures where differences between all 3 subspecies are easy visible, as follows:
T. H. HERMANNI:
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Independing I cannot speak so much about T.H. hermanni, due I am having not this subspecies on current bred of mine, there are few significant characteristic of this subspecies, making it different than T.H. boetgeri, i.e.
- yellow spot on cheeck, absent in T.H. boetgeri;
- big black markings on anal scutes of plastron (easy visible on photos 2,4,and 6), absent in T.H. boetgeri; and
- specific sign (figure) on past verterbral scute on carapace (visible on photos 5 and 7), absent in T.H. boetgeri, too!
So, having knowlege about it, independing I have not my own stock of T.H. hermanni, I thoung in first moment, the male of Sg. "Vinci" could be one non-represantative male of T.H. hermanni!!!
Eastern race,i.e. T.H. boetgeri, is very different from T.H. hermanni (including color of carapace, too, independing T.H. boetgeri is having many geographical variation in carapace colors!), what we can see in the following attached photos:
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The differences are as follows:
- subspecies boetgeri is having not yellow spots on its cheecks;
- no any black marking on anal scutes of plastron, both in juvenile and adult age (check pictures 2,3, 4 and 5);
- and, what is of highest importance - the only boetgeri is having inguinal scutes on plastron (check the last attached picture, which show the difference on one T.H. hercegovinensis and T. h. boetgeri, where the first one is having not inguinal scutes on plastron, and second one is having them).
So, Sg. "Vinci" male cannot be T.H. boetgeri, due he is having not presence on inguinal scutes on plastron (check third photo attached by side of Sg. "Vinci", please!!! On this photo, we can see very easy presence of inguinal scutes in T.H. boetgeri female, and absence of these scutes in male specimen!).
Also, checking the same photo carefully, we can see the second difference between T.H. boetgeri and other two Hermann's subspecies. The boetgeri female of Sg. "Vinci" is having not black markings on anal scutes of plastron, while his male is having them, of course!
It was one reason more to me, to treat this male as possible T.H. hermanni male, maybe... But, I made an mistake, and as few other breeders taking share in this discussion wrote, it is one T.H. hercegovinensis male!!!
To proof it, I am attaching enough number of photos of T. H. hercegovinensis, as follows:
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T.H. hercegovinensis of mine are very "dark" colored animals, i.e. with high presence on black markings on carapaces scutes (as on photo no. 1), and it caused mistake of mine to not claim Sg. "Vinci" male as T.H. hercegovinensis immediately. Photos 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 12 are showing variation in its natural color. Then, on photo 7., we can see absence of inguinal scutes in one T.H. hercegovinensis, and on photo 8, I am repeating again the difference between one T.H. hercegovinensis (absence of inguinal scutes) and T.H. boetgeri (presence of these scutes!). On photo no.9, it is possible to see yellow spot on cheeck of one T.H. hercegovinensis. Finaly, on photo 10 and 11, we can see black markings on anal scutes of T.H. hercegovinensis in adult and juvenile age (the same as in T.H. hermanni).
So, shortly, T.H. hermanni and T.H. hercegovinensis are appearing much more closer than with T.H. boetgeri, independing many authors are thinking T.H. boetgeri and T.H. hercegovinensis are very close subspecies. Above mentioned photos are showing totaly opposite situation!
With warmest regards, your Marco
!
