vogliamo tutto bene alle feste anche a loro!!!

[yuri]

mi riferisco alle radiata,particolarmente perchè sono foto di un centro di riproduzione.in quelle condizioni la prime cose che riescono a riprodurre sono virus batteri e funghi.

[luca1988]

La pardalis enorme che età potrebbe avere?

[Maria]

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Messaggio inserito da yuri

in queste condizioni penose,lo credo che non hanno buoni risultati!

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Yes, you are right, my friend. Inside of keeping conditions like this, it is impossible to obtain good results. But, it is giving us into some new questions due to expected future of endangered species, as follows:

- local, poor Government are interested to protect endangered species and make their artificial bred in enclosed farm terrains, but having not enough money to do it well.
As example, as you know, there are some Farms for Orang-Utans in Borneo (made by Indonesian Government), where they are taking care (very well), in small orphans found in the wild, or sized from smugglers. So, they are doing necessary efforts to save this species. But, due to absence of money (the costs of farms like this are very high!!!), they are pressed to sold out some quantity of small Orang-Utans yearly - to foreign ZOO's, animal dealers, etc...
In this way, total number of this species in wild is reducing every year, independing of good Government's efforts; or
- local poor Governments are pressed from outside to do something in protection of one endangered species, but - due exact Government is having not money and not interest to invest in projects like this, and international support is in verbal form only (with small, or zero of financial support). Then, Government are making "Farms" like on attached photos, and both sides are "satisfeid":
"Have you captive bred farms, or protected, higly controled area for this species!?"
"Yes, we are having it, with big wild collected animals placed inside. So, you can give some money to us now, to cover daily expences in our Farm!"
Of course, the end of stories is not always like this, but could be. Together with CITES work in some countries, I am calling it as "passive protection", independing animal's parks and captive breeding stations are existing around in the whole world. And, sometimes, the farms like this, could be much dangerous to endangered species, than - to leave specimens in nature forever.
As you can see, on the photos, they collected big quantity of subadult and adult Radiated T. from the wild, to have them enclosured. Many of these animals should bred in nature this and in future years, with great eggs production. But, they were transfered to Government Breeding Station with no necessary conditons inside, and I affraid with no necessary knowledge about their captive orders, etc..., etc...
So, surely, first years in captive life of Radiated T. (plus Angonoka, of course) in this Farm were terrible. With time something changes, and currently, Angonoka Breeding Station in Ampijoroa is realy protecting some number of this beautifull animal. But, what about future!? Each year local people is trying to steal some heads, to have money for survival. So, the situation is near to same as for wild Orang-Utans, with the difference Ampijoroa station do not sell G. yniphora out for money.
And, we came to the final point of view, as follows:
a) with no re-introduction of this species in wild origine, no good future surely. Endangered species cannot exist due to efforts in one Government breeding station only;
b) with no some quantity of adult breeders in hands of highly experienced private breeders, no future for endangered species, too. Good private breeders are ready to make everything necessary to obtain good breeding success in endangered species, independing on total costs, expensive artificial conditions, etc...
As example, the last male of Spix's Macaw (Cyanopsitta spixi) dead in Brazil few years ago, and - indpending in highest protection of this species by Brazilian Government, its wild future came at end as expected. But, there are few good private bred of this species on the world (the bigges in Philippines, than in Switzerland, Canary Islands, South Africa, plus few pairs in captivity in Brazil, too). And now, we are having small, but enough good number for future survival of this species (Spix's are bred in captivity very well!!!), and private breeders made agreement with Brazilian Government to do their best in future re-introduction of this species in Brazilian wild. I am calling it as "active" protection, and there are significant differences in above mentioned two protection opportunities.

In great love to Tortoises, your Marco

[Maria]

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Messaggio inserito da Ale

Che orrore le condizioni di queste radiata....forse hanno pochi soldi e non riescono a gestire la conservazione di questi animali nel migliore dei modi.

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You are completely right, Sir. The money are always problem in poor countries like this. So, independing on right reason to make captive breeding station like this (their own intention to protect endangered species finaly in any possible way, or - due to international pression to local Government to do it), there is nothing to do without enough sum of money available, i.e. one active Fund during years. They cannot making the costs only, and ask for staff's salaries. It is necessary to have one strong money source, to come into project like this.
And, so many Government's animals stations in many poor coutries came to end very quickly, due to absence of financial sources like this!
Yours sincerely, Marco

[yuri]

si Marco purtroppo lo so che il problema principale è la mancanza di fondi,non si fa niente qua da noi figuriamoci in paesi dove le persone ancora muoiono di fame(non in senso figurato)

Grosse geochelone pardalis pardalis del etiopia sono arrivate in discreto numero anche in italia

[Maria]

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Messaggio inserito da fabio

le condizioni dei recinti sono penose!!!!

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Unfortunately, we are having not other photos made on this Farm in its beginning. I do not know how big terrain they have had realy. In the case some outside terraing was enough good and well enclosured, some breeding success could appear in conditions like this, too.
On attached pictures, we could see inside storage of Radiated T. only, and washing of some animals. But, on second photo, it is possible to see some enclosure of some terrain (outside maybe). So, evidently, they tried to do something, and we still cannot imagine about breeding success obtained.
Anyway, to do something in this matter, is is necessary:
- as first, provide sure financial sources, capable to cover expected Farms expences;
- then, make (build) necessary facilities, and
- at the end (i.e. finaly) collect some quantity of animals from wild - much better collect all seized animals, or animals found on local markets, to have initial stock on breeding station like this.

Unfortunately, I am sure, in past - first step was collection of enough number of adult animals from wild, to have initial stock (as bigger as possible), then - making some facilities (non adequate, of course), and at the end - looking for some financial sources....

Warmest regards, Marco

[Maria]

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Messaggio inserito da mamoz

Auguri Marco!
thanks for posting these wonderfull photos.
have you read the comments of other people here?
they say that the conditions of breeding of tortoises is an "horror" and "pitiful"!!
what do you think of these comments?
may be they are too .."hurry"?
have a nice holydays, Marco.
your mario

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As I already wrote, we are having not other photos available. Anyway, we can have enough clear imagine about everything. But, we also should not go in second extreme, i.e. asking everybody to make artificial conditions the same as natural!!! Of course, they could come very near to right natural conditions at the place of origine, independing the space of animal's movements will be limited (reduced, enclosed). And, also, in enclosed places it is never possible to provide food diversity like natural ones. It is 100% impossible.
So, we cannot speak about artificial conditions the same like natural, trying to do it, we will come into great mistake, too. My oppinion is: try to make adequate conditions for longlife of captive bred animals and their high breeding results. We can open new discussion in this matter, i.e.
"natural conditions, or good life and breeding conditions"
I hope, you will understand me! As example, I am transferring temperate Tortoises of mine inside of small "sleeping rooms" every year, to protect them during winter hibernation. Independing it is appearing very bad, the results are very good and I am fully satisfied. I am having 8 small rooms (former bird's aviaries) with adequate supstrate inside, but with cement floor outside. It is appearing as bad place for Tortoises, but - I am very satisfie in it. Why!?
- my Tortoises are staying on this place (before to come into hibernation) for 2 - 3 weeks maximaly. Immediately after sign of their winter hibernation, I am transferring them to this place (all of them) after having good preparation of Tortoises bed's inside of each room);
- of course, they cannot sleep on cement, and they do not love cement at all. So, they are asking for better place to go to sleep, and they are in position to find it very easy. It means, they go inside of small sleepeing rooms themself with no any interferance of mine. Depending on exact weather outside, they wake up sometimes, and go out for short time, but after that return back to bed with no trubles;
- after all of them are inside in deep sleep, I am closing sleeping rooms carefully, and I am open small entries in them after hear spring wake ups of them inside.

So, these conditons are not so beautifull for Tortoises, but they are usable and giving very good results to me, perfect good results believe me. It means, natural conditions are not best conditions with no coments and remarks. No, sometimes conditions created by side of good breeder and Tortoises lover could exceed natural conditons in many different ways significatory!

Sincrely yours, Marco

[DelorenziDanilo]

le yniphora...
quante ce ne saranno in natura!
ho letto 400 esemplari.. ma chissà..
deve essere stupendo vederle dal vivo..

quelle della foto tra l'altro è una coppia! speriamo nei piccoli!!

[Maria]

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Messaggio inserito da yuri

mi riferisco alle radiata,particolarmente perchè sono foto di un centro di riproduzione.in quelle condizioni la prime cose che riescono a riprodurre sono virus batteri e funghi.

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Yes, of course, caro amico mio, they were surely in position to get some contagious diseases under mentioned conditions. The consequence was, new cathing of wild animals and their transfer to the same Farm, and so on. So, all died animals were replaced by new blood from wild, and during many years it was common practice. Shortly, good intention to have captive breeding station of Radiated T., caused lost of great wild population surely.
It is unnecessary to speak about "pasive" protection more....
Warmest regards, Marco

[Maria]

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Messaggio inserito da luca1988

La pardalis enorme che età potrebbe avere?

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The Ethipian exporter is speaking about age of not over 15 years in total!? It could be right, maybe, due I spoke with one big importer in Spain, already imported good quantity of this size, and he is guaranting animals of this size are not old animals.
So, we could assumed, their age is between 15 - 20 years maximaly!
Tanti saluti, Marco

[Maria]

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Messaggio inserito da yuri

si Marco purtroppo lo so che il problema principale è la mancanza di fondi,non si fa niente qua da noi figuriamoci in paesi dove le persone ancora muoiono di fame(non in senso figurato)

Grosse geochelone pardalis pardalis del etiopia sono arrivate in discreto numero anche in italia

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Of course, my friend, there is nothing to do. As I know, they are having not special breeding stations for G. radiata in the moment, and they are taking care about G. yniphor in Ampijoroa only. They are having good breeding stock over there surely, but I am having not informations regariding their yearly production in offspring. Of course, they are producing offsprings every year, but I do not know about their quantity and further movements.
Evidently, they could keep offsprings (young ones) at the same breeding station in Ampijoroa forever, with no return back of them into wild. The reaon is very simple, all offsprings returned back to nature from Ampijoroa Farm, will be collected by local people practicaly immediately. The people with no money for food, are asking in any possible source of money, with no interest in right worldwide value of this animal.
So, it is difficult to speak about future of this species with no its re-introduction to Madagascar wild, and with no captive breeding stock outside from Madagascar available!
Yours truly, Marco

[Maria]

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Messaggio inserito da DelorenziDanilo

le yniphora...
quante ce ne saranno in natura!
ho letto 400 esemplari.. ma chissà..
deve essere stupendo vederle dal vivo..

quelle della foto tra l'altro è una coppia! speriamo nei piccoli!!

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The total number cannot be over 400 heads in total, and the main quantity is situated in Ampijoroa breeding station now. Nobody could know about exact number of animals in the wild, because it is practicaly impossible to find animals of adult age in the wild now (they are already transfered to Ampijoroa, or collected by side of local "trappers" long time ago).
Anyway, I am sending few more photos from Ampijoroa breeding station to you - animals of all ages are present over there in the moment! And, I hope, to be able to provide some fresh photos in the future, too

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Yours faithfylly, Marco

[luca1988]

Caspita se sono belle!

[anto]

Citazione:

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Messaggio inserito da Maria

Citazione:

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Messaggio inserito da DelorenziDanilo

le yniphora...
quante ce ne saranno in natura!
ho letto 400 esemplari.. ma chissà..
deve essere stupendo vederle dal vivo..

quelle della foto tra l'altro è una coppia! speriamo nei piccoli!!

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The total number cannot be over 400 heads in total, and the main quantity is situated in Ampijoroa breeding station now. Nobody could know about exact number of animals in the wild, because it is practicaly impossible to find animals of adult age in the wild now (they are already transfered to Ampijoroa, or collected by side of local "trappers" long time ago).
Anyway, I am sending few more photos from Ampijoroa breeding station to you - animals of all ages are present over there in the moment! And, I hope, to be able to provide some fresh photos in the future, too


Yours faithfylly, Marco

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E' davvero un peccato se queste splendide tarte dovessero estinguersi!
Da quanto ho potuto capire, vengono prelevate in natura, per evitarne il bracconaggio e messe in questi centri. I problemi principali sono legati alla reintroduzione in natura e alla mancanza di fondi!
Correggimi se sbaglio!
Tu hai un ruolo attivo in questi programmi, collabori con queste persone?

[Maria]

E' davvero un peccato se queste splendide tarte dovessero estinguersi!
Da quanto ho potuto capire, vengono prelevate in natura, per evitarne il bracconaggio e messe in questi centri. I problemi principali sono legati alla reintroduzione in natura e alla mancanza di fondi!
Correggimi se sbaglio!
Tu hai un ruolo attivo in questi programmi, collabori con queste persone?
[/quote]

Caro Signore,
Yes, you understood practicaly everything well. As Danilo wrote, it is great wish to all Tortoises lovers and breeders to see these animals alive, i.e. by their own eyes.
Of course, it is very difficult, but not impossible. The first option is, travel to Madagascar and visit Ampijoroa breeding station, to see plenty of these beautifull animals in all ages. It is very costly, but it is possible.
The other option is an idea only, but I will start to work in it right now. We should speak with some Administrators from Tarta Club Italia, to ask Malagasy Government to lend 1 pair of Angonoka to Tarta Club Italia temporary. It means, ask for 1 pair of G. yniphora for Tartarughe Beach exhibition in Cesena next year, to keep them in Italy for few days, and after that, return back this pair to Ampijoroa breeding station immediately.
Of course, in the case of positive answer, Malagasy Government will ask for money to do this favor. So, we should calculate about permits and freight costs for this pair of animals, then costs of staying of this pair in Cesena for a few days (taxes to Malagasy Government), cost of insurance, etc... So, it could cost some money surely.
On the other side, it would make great satisfaction to many Tortoises breeders and lovers participating at Tartarughe
Beach next year (for many of them it would be the only chance to see this species alive!). And, it would be of worlwide value, too!
I am repeating, it is an idea only. But, nothing is impossible if people are working in something

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Yours faithfully, Marco