Perdono, Fratelli, perchè ho molto peccato...

trifo
Messaggi: 722
Iscritto il: gio ott 05, 2006 6:18 pm

Messaggioda trifo » ven gen 05, 2007 11:58 pm

Citazione:
Messaggio inserito da Luca-VE

Citazione:
Messaggio inserito da AleeHali

NOOOOOO... SCHERZO!
... anzi l'impressione è che, per gli animali domestici, il rispetto sia piuttosto alto. Dal momento che il loro costo è relativamente caro rispetto al tenore di vita generale...
Per carità, potrei anche essere smentito, ma l'idea che mi sono fatto è che ci sia un po' meno quella (sotto-)cultura dell'animale "usa e getta", messo in mano al bimbo finchè dura...

Ciao





La conferma al fatto che cio' "che costa" finisce quasi sempre in mano a chi ci tiene, al contrario delle tarta vendute a pochi euro che comprano cani e porci (senza offesa per nessuno).
Inoltre e' vero che molti paesi sono piu' avanti di noi a cultura animalesca...
Complimenti per l'acquisto, e' davvero bella, in mano tua stara' benissimo ;)


Sono dello stesso parere...non poteva finire in mani migliori!!!

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tequila
Messaggi: 199
Iscritto il: sab nov 11, 2006 3:28 pm

Messaggioda tequila » sab gen 06, 2007 1:56 pm

ma guardando la chitra adulta mi è sorto un dubbio...
E' la foto o è proprio sproporzionato il rapporto testa-corazza??
Ha la testa minuscola...:0

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AleeHali
Messaggi: 580
Iscritto il: mar ago 22, 2006 1:04 pm

Messaggioda AleeHali » sab gen 06, 2007 5:44 pm

In effetti la testa è minuscola rispetto al resto; però non ti far ingannare dalla foto: al Museo di Storia Naturale di Praga ho visto il cranio di una Chitra indica, ed era largo almeno 10cm. Se fai le proporzioni ti rendi conto delle dimensioni della bestiolina...

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tequila
Messaggi: 199
Iscritto il: sab nov 11, 2006 3:28 pm

Messaggioda tequila » sab gen 06, 2007 8:12 pm

Caspita!! :0Chiamala bestiolina... comunque da piccola è davvero meravigliosa!

Maria
Messaggi: 336
Iscritto il: ven dic 08, 2006 7:53 am
Località: Estero

Messaggioda Maria » sab gen 06, 2007 9:57 pm

Citazione:
Messaggio inserito da EDG

Anche se un esemplare di chitra chitra di oltre 2 metri non si è mai visto, non avrei mai pensato che quella faccina simpatica dell'avatar diventi un bestione di questo tipo::)

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Of course, dear Sir, young animal found in Polland is surely not specimen of Chitra chitra. I do not like to unsatisfied my dear friend Alessandro (AlleHalli), one of the best Tortoises lover I ever knew, but - Chitra chitra coming from different group of Water Turtles.
There are one very big captive breeding farm of Chitra chitra in Malaysia (owner Mr. Duncan Ong - Waco Exotic Reptile Enterprise Company), producing big quantity of Chitra chitra each year. And, of course, this Company is exporting all sizes of Chitra chitra worldwide every year.
I have got some photos from Waco Exotic in past, and I am attaching these photos to Tarta Forum now, as follows:


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photo 1. batch of hatchlings



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photo 2. baby + young one of 20 cm size



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photo 3. young of 12 cm size + young of 20 cm size



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photo 4. giant adult one



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photo 5. the size comparation - from young to adult one

So, it is very easy to see, young animal from Polland is not Chitra chitra. To know more about Chitras (both Chitra chitra and Chitra indica), as well about color modification in this species, you can visit Waco Exotic on the following Web pages, i.e.

www.chitrachitra.com

and, address of this Company in Malasia is:

Waco Exotic Reptile Enterprise
Batu 3 1/2 , Jln Kuarli Sam Choon
Jln Kluang , 83000, Batu Pahat , Johore, Malaysia
For enquiries: sales@chitrachitra.com

Young animal, Mr. Allesandro found in Polland is without doubt:

EASTERN SPINY SOFTSHELL TURTLE (Apalone spinifera spinifera),

originate from Southeastern Canada, Wisconsin, and southern Michigan to northern Mississippi and othern Alabama (USA).

It is 100% sure. If necessary, I will add some photos to proof it!

Yours sincrely, Marco

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AleeHali
Messaggi: 580
Iscritto il: mar ago 22, 2006 1:04 pm

Messaggioda AleeHali » sab gen 06, 2007 10:34 pm

Hello Marco!
Don't worry, I wasn't supposing to have a Chitra!!! It's just a Pelodiscus sinensis, of course... But as the discussion went along, we started to talk about the avatar picture on the left of my posts - which IS a Chitra, indeed - and we exchanged a few infos about that.

I bought the little guy to start my experience with softshells, exactly because I hope to be able, one day, to have the facilities for Chitra (my "dream turtle"), but also for less-known species, such as Cycloderma etc.

Thank you for posting these pics, it's always pleasing to see such beauties..!

Cheers!

Maria
Messaggi: 336
Iscritto il: ven dic 08, 2006 7:53 am
Località: Estero

Messaggioda Maria » sab gen 06, 2007 11:03 pm

Citazione:
Messaggio inserito da AleeHali

Hello Marco!
Don't worry, I wasn't supposing to have a Chitra!!! It's just a Pelodiscus sinensis, of course... But as the discussion went along, we started to talk about the avatar picture on the left of my posts - which IS a Chitra, indeed - and we exchanged a few infos about that.

I bought the little guy to start my experience with softshells, exactly because I hope to be able, one day, to have the facilities for Chitra (my "dream turtle"), but also for less-known species, such as Cycloderma etc.

Dear Alessandro,

first of all, I would like to appologize to everybody, due to great mistake of mine. So please, NEVER HURRYING SO MUCH unnecessary.
I know very well, AlleeHali know enough about the difference between Chitra chitra and Pelodiscus chinensis, but anyway, he made mistake in its indentification, the same like me.
I was "100% SURE", it is "Apalone spinifera spinifera", because I cast a glance on body type of young animals from Poland, as well in its plastron markings. And, after that, I eliminated Pelodiscus chinensis, and found immediately it could be one "Apalone spinifera", due have seen some photos of Apalone yesterday.
And, of course, I made an mistake, and I am appologize for it to everybody, particularly to
Santacroce Fabricio (CHELUS85), and
Roberto Bonacci (Guscioduro)
because these two Turtle lovers, made right identification of this species very easy.
Yes, of course, I found wrong species. It is not Apalone spinifera spinifera, indepedning in few alike details. It is, as above mentioned poeple say (and, Mr. Alessandro confirmed)

CHINESE SOFTSHELL TURTLE (Pelodiscus sinensis), of course.

Due to great mistake of mine, I am attaching some photos confirming it very easy now, as follows:





Thank you for posting these pics, it's always pleasing to see such beauties..!

Cheers!


Maria
Messaggi: 336
Iscritto il: ven dic 08, 2006 7:53 am
Località: Estero

Messaggioda Maria » sab gen 06, 2007 11:21 pm

Citazione:
Messaggio inserito da Maria

Citazione:
Messaggio inserito da AleeHali

Hello Marco!
Don't worry, I wasn't supposing to have a Chitra!!! It's just a Pelodiscus sinensis, of course... But as the discussion went along, we started to talk about the avatar picture on the left of my posts - which IS a Chitra, indeed - and we exchanged a few infos about that.

I bought the little guy to start my experience with softshells, exactly because I hope to be able, one day, to have the facilities for Chitra (my "dream turtle"), but also for less-known species, such as Cycloderma etc.

Thank you for posting these pics, it's always pleasing to see such beauties..!

Cheers!





Dear Alessandro,

first of all, I would like to appologize to everybody, due to great mistake of mine. So please, [size=2]NEVER HURRYING SO MUCH unnecessary.

I know very well, AlleeHali know enough about the difference between Chitra chitra and Pelodiscus sinensis, but anyway, he made mistake in its indentification, the same like me.
I was "100% SURE", it is "Apalone spinifera spinifera", because I cast a glance on body type of young animals from Poland, as well in its plastron markings. And, after that, I eliminated Pelodiscus sinensis, and found immediately it could be one "Apalone spinifera", due have seen some photos of Apalone yesterday.
And, of course, I made an mistake, and I am appologize for it to everybody, particularly to
Santacroce Fabricio (CHELUS85), and
Roberto Bonacci (Guscioduro)
because these two Turtle lovers, made right identification of this species very easy.
Yes, of course, I found wrong species. It is not Apalone spinifera spinifera, indepedning in few alike details. It is, as above mentioned poeple say (and, Mr. Alessandro confirmed)

CHINESE SOFTSHELL TURTLE (Pelodiscus sinensis), of course.

Due to great mistake of mine, I am attaching some photos confirming it very easy now, as follows:


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So, it is the same species like young animal found in Polland. But, why I made an mistake with Apalone spinifera spinifera. Shortly, DUE TO UNNECESSARY HURRYING. Check photos of Apalone spinifera spinifera, and independing on some resemblances, there are singificant differences available!



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I am appologize once more to everybody!

Yours faithfully, Marco

Maria
Messaggi: 336
Iscritto il: ven dic 08, 2006 7:53 am
Località: Estero

Messaggioda Maria » sab gen 06, 2007 11:27 pm

Dear Alessandro,

I am sending some details about Chiness Softshell Turtles now. These details could be usable to interested breeders maybe!

Yours faithfully, Marco

*************************

Recognition
There is a marginal ridge on the oval, slightly longer than wide, carapace (to 25 cm). Juveniles exhibit longitudinal rows of blunt tubercles, but the adult carapace is smooth, except for one to a few enlarged, blunt knobs on the anterior rim above the neck. No preneural bone is present and only a single neural bone separates the anterior of the eight pairs of costals. The 8th costals meet at the midline. Carapacial bones are finely pitted. The carapace is olive to gray and in juveniles is patterned with round, light-bordered black spots. The white to yellow plastron is immaculate in adults but has large black blotches in juveniles. Callosities, totaling seven, occur on the hyo- and hypoplastra, the xiphiplastra, and sometimes the epiplastra. The epiplastra are separated, and the entoplastron forms obtuse angles to the midline. There is usually a suture between hyo- and hypoplastra. The skull is of moderate size with a bony snout which is longer than the greatest diameter of the orbit. The mandible lacks a symphysial ridge, and the width of the symphysis is greater than the greatest diameter of the orbit. Head and limbs are olive to yellowish white, and the head and neck may have fine black lines. The throat is either light with vermiculations or dark with yellow spots. There often are fine black lines radiating from the eyes. The tubular snout has a lateral ridge projecting from each side of the nasal septum; the lips are fleshy and the jaws are sharp.
Males differ from females in being shallower and having long, thick tails, with the vent near the tip. Females are more domed, and their tails barely extend past the carapacial rim.

Distribution
Pelodiscus sinensis inhabits extreme southeastern Siberia (between the Ussuri and the Amur River drainages), adjacent Korea, central and southern China, Vietnam, and the islands of Hainan and Taiwan. It has been introduced into the Hawaiian Islands, Guam, one of the Mariana Islands, one of the Bonin Islands, Timor, and Japan.
The species is apparently the rarer of the two softshells introduced into the Hawaiian Islands, where it seems to be restricted to Kauai. Further studies have revealed that the Chinese softshells on some of the islands in Okinawa Prefecture, southwestern Japan originated in Taiwan.

Geographic Variation
Pelodiscus sinensis is an extremely variable species with a wide distribution. Consequently, numerous taxa have been described from different parts of the species' range. Most recently described or resurrected are Trionyx axenaria, Trionyx maackii and Pelodiscus parviformis. Some of these taxa may prove to be valid in the future, but until a complete taxonomic review of this complex is undertaken, it seems best to consider them synonyms of Pelodiscus sinensis.
The level of subspeciation may never be understood due to the vast quantities of individuals that have been shippedfrom many different localities to distant lands for the food trade, and because of the large scale farming operations with mixed genetic stock originating from different geographic sources.

Habitat
In China, Pelodiscus sinensis is found in rivers, lakes, ponds, canals, and creeks with slow currents. On Kauai, Hawaii, it occurs in marshes and drainage ditches. The basking habit is not well-developed.

Natural History
Sexual maturity is reached in 4-6 years. Spermatogenesis begins in May, and sperm production continues through July. Spermiogenesis becomes more prominent in September, and by October the germinal epithelium of the seminiferous tubules is mainly composed of spermatids and spermatozoa. Many spermatozoa also crowd the lumen at this time. The spermatozoa pass to the epididymides from November to February. Viable sperm may be retained in the female oviducts for almost a year after copulation.
Mating takes place from May to July in Japan. The copulatory act occurs at the surface or underwater with the male holding the female's carapace with his forelimbs and sometimes biting at her head, neck, and limbs.
In Japan, nesting begins in late May and continues to mid-August. The nest is a squarish hole with the corners rounded out; it generally is about 7.5-10 cm across the entrance.
Females may ovulate 2-5 times a year, laying 8-12 to 20-30 eggs each time. The white, spherical eggs average about 20 mm in diameter, but may be as large as 24 mm. Incubation takes about 60 (23-83) days, depending on soil tempareture.
Hatchlings average 27 mm in carapace length and are about 25 mm wide. The carapace is olive, and it may have a pattern of small, dark-bordered ocelli. Its marginal fold is prominent, as are the longitudinal rows of spiny tubercles. The plastron is orange-red, with (or occasionally without) large dark blotches. Limbs and head are olive above and lighter below; the hindlegs are orange-red below. The head has dark flecks, and dark lines radiate from the eyes. The throat is mottled, and the lips may have small, dark bars. There is a pair of dark blotches in frontof the tail and a black band on the posterior side of each thigh.
Pelodiscus sinensis is predominantly carnivorous. In stomachs of P. sinensis examined, scientifist found the remains of fish, crustaceans, mollusks, insects, and seeds of marsh plants. They reported that juveniles feed on fish and that adults eat fish and bivalves. Captives eat canned and fresh fish, canned dog food, raw beef, mice, frogs, and chicken.

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AleeHali
Messaggi: 580
Iscritto il: mar ago 22, 2006 1:04 pm

Messaggioda AleeHali » sab gen 06, 2007 11:40 pm

Marco, I must confess that, the moment I saw the little guy in the acquarium shop, I tought it to be exactly an Apalone spinifera!
Then I stopped, started to think again, and realized that something was wrong with the spots... But I couldn't be 100% sure until I went back home and checked with the books.
I'm the lucky owner of a copy of "North American Recent Soft-shelled Turtles" by Webb (Univ.of Kansas, 1962), and there was no way I could match my turtle to the pics.
On the other hand, the "Chinese connection" worked well!

No big mistake, really... At least I hope, as I made it myself... And THANK YOU for the pictures and SUPERB information!

Cheers

Maria
Messaggi: 336
Iscritto il: ven dic 08, 2006 7:53 am
Località: Estero

Messaggioda Maria » sab gen 06, 2007 11:49 pm

Citazione:
Messaggio inserito da AleeHali

Marco, I must confess that, the moment I saw the little guy in the acquarium shop, I tought it to be exactly an Apalone spinifera!
Then I stopped, started to think again, and realized that something was wrong with the spots... But I couldn't be 100% sure until I went back home and checked with the books.
I'm the lucky owner of a copy of "North American Recent Soft-shelled Turtles" by Webb (Univ.of Kansas, 1962), and there was no way I could match my turtle to the pics.
On the other hand, the "Chinese connection" worked well!

No big mistake, really... At least I hope, as I made it myself... And THANK YOU for the pictures and SUPERB information!

Cheers





THANKS FOR UNDERSTANDING, my dear friend. We are always on the same wavelenght!!!
Warmest regards, Marco

luca1988
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Messaggioda luca1988 » dom gen 07, 2007 11:44 am

Che belle ste foto!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

twisty
Messaggi: 1565
Iscritto il: sab lug 29, 2006 10:48 am

Messaggioda twisty » dom gen 07, 2007 8:35 pm

secondo me quello che fa marco è molto bello, sarà perchè mi sento illuminato nel ricevere tutte queste informazioni riguardo la chitra e le soffici in generale,ma comunque ogni volta lui ci lascia spiegazioni molto esaudienti riguardandti ogni specie, e penso che a persone come me, vogliose di sapere, sia una delle cose migliori che possa trovare in un forum di tarta appassionati.
comunque non so perchè certi siti non riesco a trovarli..mah

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platysternon
Messaggi: 2276
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Messaggioda platysternon » dom gen 07, 2007 10:37 pm

che spettacolo

Gemini
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Località: Calabria

Messaggioda Gemini » gio gen 25, 2007 5:45 pm

Citazione:
Messaggio inserito da AleeHali

Ah, dimenticavo: no ho ancora cercato il conforto dei Sacri Testi, ma immagino si tratti di Pelodiscus sinensis


Sono in possesso anch'io di una tartaruga dal guscio molle, simile alla tua, ma ho sempre pensato che fosse di Appartenenza Trionix, specie Apalone Spinifera!
Come faccio a distinguerla da una Pelodiscus???


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